The most tragic thing of all about the political project, wrapping race and gender together and the attempt to destabilize institutions, is that children are being indoctrinated with these ideas at school, through social media, in the culture at large. If it is hard for adults to tease all of this apart, and to figure out that water is wet and sex is real, I don’t think vulnerable kids really stand a chance. It seems like we need a wholesale societal effort to teach people about the importance of objective reality and how to determine what is and is not factually true.
My guess is rather than being indoctrinated with ideas, that kids (and adults) are just learning that you say certain formulae to signal commmitment to the broader moral tribe. I think this is as much indoctrination as it is when kids are told Jesus turned water into wine in church. Is it a propositional claim? Kind of? Is it a values claim? Definitely. Of course there are die-hard ideologues, but I think most gender identity beliefs have the epistemological character of religious beliefs, not "2+2=4" beliefs. This doesn't make them harmless, but should frame how we deal with them.
For more about the ideas Ben talks about in this episode that inform the worldview of the liberal justices and the protestors who yelled at Jamie that she was racist, I can’t recommend the book, “Cynical Theories: How Activist Scholarship Made Everything about Race, Gender, and Identity - and Why This Harms Everybody,” by Helen Pluckrose and James Lindsay, enough. I now realize in retrospect that much of my early years online were spent essentially watching postmodernism eat liberal feminism, and this book fills in the “meanwhile, in academia” details.
Great conversation, you are all inspiring. A discussion topic I’d like to see is what causes gender dysphoria. So many people seem to be believe in some sort of innate true trans and it’s something that just seems to be taken as a given by almost all media coverage. Even the media stories that are quite balanced about trans medicine don’t ever seem to actually question this premise. I guess I want to have some convincing arguments to use with people who say things like ‘oh yes, it’s gotten a little out of control, and there is some social contagion, but there are some people who really are born trans’. My usual reply that there is no evidence of that isn’t really getting me anywhere.
I don't think there is any universal agreement on whether there is an actual diagnosis of being transgendered, but Az Hakeem has treated a large number of patients over many years. His view is that people who have a deeply seated notion of being transgendered are almost always autistic. Hakeem observes that some of these autistic people, even after many years of therapy, remain convinced that they are "in the wrong body".
It's worth listening to the whole youtube discussion. Hakeem also acknowledges that another group of transgendered people are "fetishistic transvestites." And yet another group choose a trans identity because of social influence. However, the group that doesn't seem to change their mind about being "in the wrong body" are primarily those with autism.
It's because of this group, the autistic transgendered group, that I don't go along with the belief of some in the gender critical movement that "trans people don't exist".
There has to be room for acknowledging that neurodivergence exists, and this neurodivergence can lead to a deeply seated and unwavering sense of being "in the wrong body."
To be clear, I am not arguing that these neurodivergent/autistic individuals must be medically or surgically transitioned. However, it would be wrong to say that their experience of being "in the wrong body" does not exist.
Hakeem does make the point that cases of autistic transgenderism are quite rare.
Do you think autism is a "delusion" or a neurological condition?
One definition of a "delusion" is presenting with a false fixed belief. Let's admit that an autistic person may have a false fixed belief ie. a "delusion". As Hakeem points out, one reason that an autistic person may choose to think they are "born in the wrong body" is their tendency toward rule based thinking. This might not allow them to accept that they might be gay. It may be more tolerable for them to believe they are "born in the wrong body" than accept that they are gay. Apparently, Hakeem has seen a high correlation of this belief in autistic men who present with gender dysphoria.
So . . . one could simply say that gender dysphoric autistic people don't exist or are simply delusional. However, there are many high functioning autistic people with gender dysphoria. Computer science and engineering are full of high functioning autistic people. Many of them are wealthy and influential. Quite a few have funded and participated in trans activism.
Whether or not these people are viewed as being delusional, "true trans", or something else, our workplaces, our online experiences and even our law courts clearly have enough of these "delusional" gender dysphoric autists that it is affecting our society.
To me, the question isn't whether or not these gender dysphoric autists are delusional or not. The questions are: how do we diagnose and treat this condition humanely? Also, how do we mitigate the effect that these gender dysphoric autists have on the rest of society.
"Autism is not a disease but a syndrome with multiple nongenetic and genetic causes. By autism (the autistic spectrum disorders [ASDs]), we mean the wide spectrum of developmental disorders characterized by impairments in 3 behavioral domains: 1) social interaction; 2) language, communication, and imaginative play; and 3) range of interests and activities."
Born trans = has persistent idiopathic gender dysphoria? Even by gender ideology logic you can't be literally trans because gender is a cultural performance. You can be born I guess with intuitions toward a cultural performance but that would still be a culturally conditioned response. The trans activists sort of want to combine the concept of gender dysphoria with the concept of cultural conditioning to create an essentialist state called trans, but it is a philosophical logical mess.
THANK YOU SO MUCH for this, friends. I felt like I was taking crazy pills while listening to the arguments at SCOTUS last week, especially the astonishing dumbassery of Sotomayor and Brown-Jackson. It's sad that these women--one of whom is a mother--are so uninformed or heedless about basic human biology and evolution. Pouring opposite-sex hormones into an adolescent doesn't turn a boy into a girl or a girl into a boy--it just screws with their sexual development and endocrine systems.
Maybe Sotomayor, as a childless woman, hasn't really thought through human development from birth to adulthood, but how anyone who made babies with her own body can fall for this dystopian fantasy is truly beyond me.
I don’t get how the overreach of anti-colonialism as an explanation “is communism” though. I agree it’s a very specious argument, but how in the world is it communism?
Good point, and I simplified that aspect of it too much. I should’ve strictly used words like anti-colonial, although the desire to raze civilization and build in its place a socialist utopia is accurate. But I do think communism is relevant because of the anti-capitalism at the core of this radical project, as well as its close alignment with Maoism.
Ah utopianism is what all these people on the internet mean by communism. I think that’s what’s called a synecdoche? Not all utopias are communist. The one that contemporary progressives imagine certainly isn’t. They literally just want to “flip the pyramid” as all the 2020 infographics they posted explained.
I endorse the idea of discussing theology and trans ideology. During the 90s, when I was studying right wing movements, I heard a presentation regarding how the world view of people who believe in elaborate conspiracy theories (The Jews, the New World Order, e.g.) hold these beliefs on a deep theological
level. It makes these people practically impossible to reach with rational argumentation.
Their “theology” may not include a belief in God per se, but it has the deep structure of a religious belief system. I think we need to get a handle on this if we are going to have any hope of understanding WTAF is going on.
In fact, I recommended to Sasha Ayad that they find a guest for Gender: A Wider Lens who can explore the theological aspect of gender ideology.
I'm a woman married to a woman (I don't like to call myself "lesbian" because I don't want to be associated with all the letters that come after "LGB", but I'm feeling heartened by all the gay people taking our words back!) and she COMPLETELY buys into the gender woo. I don't buy any of it. She has called me racist and I was bewildered where that came from. Now I know. Thanks for explaining that, Ben.
This racism charge is new to me. Ben explained the idiotic roots of it. I think I’ll just call it vomit. When people are spewing insults at those of us who don’t buy into their crap, they reach for the usual vomit. ‘Racism’ which is meaningless
"gender creationists" is excellent and makes my woe of a prof saying "two sexes with variation" and not going along with compelled speech to agree with multiple sexes nonsense, and the attack on sex realism was seen similar to the attack on evolution (along with sex bedrock biology) by Creationists in the 90s.
"Name a third type of human gamete and explain its role in reproduction and evolution. I'll give you a million dollars, go." I have never had to pay out on this challenge.
Yes, love that Helen Joyce uses that question, too! I didn't sign up to be the Binary Sheriff but I'm looking for a lawyer to sue my U including DEI admin who supported students who wanted me to confess to multiple sexes as compelled speech. Also U held me responsible for creating hostile environment after the fact for unintentional "she"/misgenderings?
I really really really want to hear more about Dr Olsen Kennedy, the intentional self suppression of her research, and her motives. I sadly have a good friend who’s child (now 13) has been a long time patient of Dr Olsen Kennedy’s and despite being allowed to socially transition early, being put in schools and programs and sent to trans camps and offered nothing but support - this child has steadily deteriorated over the years. Like you mention in the show, the mother has sort of doubled down because how could you not when you set your child on this path. The child refused to come to dinner because he had run out of binding tape, won’t get in a pool, won’t even go to school most days, abuses his own body and restricts food…and worst of all the child is aggressively self harming his upper body and Dr Kennedys solution for the 13 year old was…. You guessed it…. Double mastectomy. I am floored and deeply saddened. This is a good family with a good kid who have been totally taken in by this person who has built a career and a fortune on harming kids and I want her exposed. I really hope this podcast gains traction and these ideas and conversations spread to the coverage in the MSM. How can we be doing this to our kids.
On religion and trans. Are you all familiar with the Unitarian universalists latest national meeting. Despite being non credal they adopted a business resolution to make it more authoritative that expounds on the holy divine nature of trans and non binary people and commits to defending medical transition services with no safeguards and admonishes members to support a a group that helps you ng people cross state lines to relocate or receive services. To underscore this I have collected clips of some of the statements our clergy areaking about the spiritual place trans people occupy. They sound nuts. I left active ministry years ago but while still active I gained a great deal of name recognition as the author of a beloved curriculum, familiarity with an illustrated advent calendar I produced for churches to use,and my leadership in the initial work to make our congregations more welcoming to persona with various disabilities and mental health issues. (In response to Ben's query on religion and trans. I would love to engage more on this at any time.)
Fascinating! I know Heterdorx and Blocked and Reported have had episodes on the religious aspect, specifically an interview with Heterdorx and a segment on a specific UU church on BarPod.
The UU, UCC and liberal Presbyterian churches in my city all have progress flags and “affirming” messages. Feels very faith based.
Is that Nina’s original of “The Disenchanter” on the wall behind Cori? 😜
Sorry to comment again, but you brought up religion at the end of the episode. One thing I’ve been mulling over lately is the idea that “the new priests are the old priests.” By which I mean, to the extent that humanity seems to have an innate priest/nun/monk class - probably in itself a very controversial idea, maybe I instead should say, those most drawn to that type of role - it overlaps heavily with the people we now think of as members of the LGBTQ+.
I can remember at 10-years-old or so being quite distressed when I started to develop breasts. It took me for than five years to accept this as normal. I think this is very common in girls. I would even go so far as to say that early puberty for a majority of girls is at least anxiety inducing if not outright fear inducing. Sadly, instead of helping these girls accept their bodies, for many, we have a subculture that is now telling girls that if they don't want to grow up to be a woman, they can grow up to be a man.
Clearly, there are also some boys who are distressed with male puberty. These boys are fewer in number than the distressed girls, but many of them are also suffering at the hands of the biology denialists.
I think Hakeem's comments are insightful, but like O'Malley, I am still gathering information on these various aspects of gender dysphoria. I would like to hear from other psychiatrists who are outside the immediate affirmation model for gender dysphoria who are working toward understanding the complexities of gender dysphoria.
My initial comment here stems from my conversations with a subset of radical feminists who have argued that transgendered people simply don't exist. While I consider myself to be a feminist in that I believe in advocacy for equal pay for women, maternity leave, protected female spaces, addressing violence against women, etc.), I do not consider myself to be a radical feminist in that I am not de facto "trans-exclusionary". I think we need to admit that some who consider themselves to be transgendered hold a deeply seated genuine belief which may stem from autism or some other neurological condition. At the same time, there are those who Hakeem categorizes as fetishistic transvestites who are determined to enter women's spaces. It's a complex picture that the law, society and even medical professionals have not yet grasped.
My favorite thing in all the world is seeing my gender-critical heroes get together and talk about what's real and true. Can't wait to watch!!
❤️
The most tragic thing of all about the political project, wrapping race and gender together and the attempt to destabilize institutions, is that children are being indoctrinated with these ideas at school, through social media, in the culture at large. If it is hard for adults to tease all of this apart, and to figure out that water is wet and sex is real, I don’t think vulnerable kids really stand a chance. It seems like we need a wholesale societal effort to teach people about the importance of objective reality and how to determine what is and is not factually true.
My guess is rather than being indoctrinated with ideas, that kids (and adults) are just learning that you say certain formulae to signal commmitment to the broader moral tribe. I think this is as much indoctrination as it is when kids are told Jesus turned water into wine in church. Is it a propositional claim? Kind of? Is it a values claim? Definitely. Of course there are die-hard ideologues, but I think most gender identity beliefs have the epistemological character of religious beliefs, not "2+2=4" beliefs. This doesn't make them harmless, but should frame how we deal with them.
For more about the ideas Ben talks about in this episode that inform the worldview of the liberal justices and the protestors who yelled at Jamie that she was racist, I can’t recommend the book, “Cynical Theories: How Activist Scholarship Made Everything about Race, Gender, and Identity - and Why This Harms Everybody,” by Helen Pluckrose and James Lindsay, enough. I now realize in retrospect that much of my early years online were spent essentially watching postmodernism eat liberal feminism, and this book fills in the “meanwhile, in academia” details.
Great book! They have a simplified reader, too.
Great conversation, you are all inspiring. A discussion topic I’d like to see is what causes gender dysphoria. So many people seem to be believe in some sort of innate true trans and it’s something that just seems to be taken as a given by almost all media coverage. Even the media stories that are quite balanced about trans medicine don’t ever seem to actually question this premise. I guess I want to have some convincing arguments to use with people who say things like ‘oh yes, it’s gotten a little out of control, and there is some social contagion, but there are some people who really are born trans’. My usual reply that there is no evidence of that isn’t really getting me anywhere.
Noted!
What causes Gender Dysphoria?
Az Hakeem (psychiatrist) thoughts on what causes gender dysphoria:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHe5vbMj_YU
I don't think there is any universal agreement on whether there is an actual diagnosis of being transgendered, but Az Hakeem has treated a large number of patients over many years. His view is that people who have a deeply seated notion of being transgendered are almost always autistic. Hakeem observes that some of these autistic people, even after many years of therapy, remain convinced that they are "in the wrong body".
It's worth listening to the whole youtube discussion. Hakeem also acknowledges that another group of transgendered people are "fetishistic transvestites." And yet another group choose a trans identity because of social influence. However, the group that doesn't seem to change their mind about being "in the wrong body" are primarily those with autism.
It's because of this group, the autistic transgendered group, that I don't go along with the belief of some in the gender critical movement that "trans people don't exist".
There has to be room for acknowledging that neurodivergence exists, and this neurodivergence can lead to a deeply seated and unwavering sense of being "in the wrong body."
To be clear, I am not arguing that these neurodivergent/autistic individuals must be medically or surgically transitioned. However, it would be wrong to say that their experience of being "in the wrong body" does not exist.
Hakeem does make the point that cases of autistic transgenderism are quite rare.
Welcome! I too found Hakeem's thoughts in this interview quite enlightening.
Do you think autism is a "delusion" or a neurological condition?
One definition of a "delusion" is presenting with a false fixed belief. Let's admit that an autistic person may have a false fixed belief ie. a "delusion". As Hakeem points out, one reason that an autistic person may choose to think they are "born in the wrong body" is their tendency toward rule based thinking. This might not allow them to accept that they might be gay. It may be more tolerable for them to believe they are "born in the wrong body" than accept that they are gay. Apparently, Hakeem has seen a high correlation of this belief in autistic men who present with gender dysphoria.
So . . . one could simply say that gender dysphoric autistic people don't exist or are simply delusional. However, there are many high functioning autistic people with gender dysphoria. Computer science and engineering are full of high functioning autistic people. Many of them are wealthy and influential. Quite a few have funded and participated in trans activism.
Whether or not these people are viewed as being delusional, "true trans", or something else, our workplaces, our online experiences and even our law courts clearly have enough of these "delusional" gender dysphoric autists that it is affecting our society.
To me, the question isn't whether or not these gender dysphoric autists are delusional or not. The questions are: how do we diagnose and treat this condition humanely? Also, how do we mitigate the effect that these gender dysphoric autists have on the rest of society.
The Genetics of Autism
https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article-abstract/113/5/e472/66709/The-Genetics-of-Autism
"Autism is not a disease but a syndrome with multiple nongenetic and genetic causes. By autism (the autistic spectrum disorders [ASDs]), we mean the wide spectrum of developmental disorders characterized by impairments in 3 behavioral domains: 1) social interaction; 2) language, communication, and imaginative play; and 3) range of interests and activities."
Born trans = has persistent idiopathic gender dysphoria? Even by gender ideology logic you can't be literally trans because gender is a cultural performance. You can be born I guess with intuitions toward a cultural performance but that would still be a culturally conditioned response. The trans activists sort of want to combine the concept of gender dysphoria with the concept of cultural conditioning to create an essentialist state called trans, but it is a philosophical logical mess.
THANK YOU SO MUCH for this, friends. I felt like I was taking crazy pills while listening to the arguments at SCOTUS last week, especially the astonishing dumbassery of Sotomayor and Brown-Jackson. It's sad that these women--one of whom is a mother--are so uninformed or heedless about basic human biology and evolution. Pouring opposite-sex hormones into an adolescent doesn't turn a boy into a girl or a girl into a boy--it just screws with their sexual development and endocrine systems.
Maybe Sotomayor, as a childless woman, hasn't really thought through human development from birth to adulthood, but how anyone who made babies with her own body can fall for this dystopian fantasy is truly beyond me.
I don’t get how the overreach of anti-colonialism as an explanation “is communism” though. I agree it’s a very specious argument, but how in the world is it communism?
Good point, and I simplified that aspect of it too much. I should’ve strictly used words like anti-colonial, although the desire to raze civilization and build in its place a socialist utopia is accurate. But I do think communism is relevant because of the anti-capitalism at the core of this radical project, as well as its close alignment with Maoism.
Ah utopianism is what all these people on the internet mean by communism. I think that’s what’s called a synecdoche? Not all utopias are communist. The one that contemporary progressives imagine certainly isn’t. They literally just want to “flip the pyramid” as all the 2020 infographics they posted explained.
Hey Lisa,
Tell Ben I’ve been using gender philosophy.
Wow. The Dream Team. Felt like I was in an open motorboat, zooming across a lake with fresh cool air in my face.
You are all amazing and it feels like history is happening right now and you are there including us.
I endorse the idea of discussing theology and trans ideology. During the 90s, when I was studying right wing movements, I heard a presentation regarding how the world view of people who believe in elaborate conspiracy theories (The Jews, the New World Order, e.g.) hold these beliefs on a deep theological
level. It makes these people practically impossible to reach with rational argumentation.
Their “theology” may not include a belief in God per se, but it has the deep structure of a religious belief system. I think we need to get a handle on this if we are going to have any hope of understanding WTAF is going on.
In fact, I recommended to Sasha Ayad that they find a guest for Gender: A Wider Lens who can explore the theological aspect of gender ideology.
I'm a woman married to a woman (I don't like to call myself "lesbian" because I don't want to be associated with all the letters that come after "LGB", but I'm feeling heartened by all the gay people taking our words back!) and she COMPLETELY buys into the gender woo. I don't buy any of it. She has called me racist and I was bewildered where that came from. Now I know. Thanks for explaining that, Ben.
This racism charge is new to me. Ben explained the idiotic roots of it. I think I’ll just call it vomit. When people are spewing insults at those of us who don’t buy into their crap, they reach for the usual vomit. ‘Racism’ which is meaningless
"Gender creationists" is a term I've used for a while. See also "Transboro Baptists."
"gender creationists" is excellent and makes my woe of a prof saying "two sexes with variation" and not going along with compelled speech to agree with multiple sexes nonsense, and the attack on sex realism was seen similar to the attack on evolution (along with sex bedrock biology) by Creationists in the 90s.
"Name a third type of human gamete and explain its role in reproduction and evolution. I'll give you a million dollars, go." I have never had to pay out on this challenge.
Yes, love that Helen Joyce uses that question, too! I didn't sign up to be the Binary Sheriff but I'm looking for a lawyer to sue my U including DEI admin who supported students who wanted me to confess to multiple sexes as compelled speech. Also U held me responsible for creating hostile environment after the fact for unintentional "she"/misgenderings?
I'm guessing you are already familiar with FIRE taking on these types of cases, but if not: https://www.thefire.org/news/ohio-professors-pronoun-use-lawsuit-delivers-first-amendment-victory
I really really really want to hear more about Dr Olsen Kennedy, the intentional self suppression of her research, and her motives. I sadly have a good friend who’s child (now 13) has been a long time patient of Dr Olsen Kennedy’s and despite being allowed to socially transition early, being put in schools and programs and sent to trans camps and offered nothing but support - this child has steadily deteriorated over the years. Like you mention in the show, the mother has sort of doubled down because how could you not when you set your child on this path. The child refused to come to dinner because he had run out of binding tape, won’t get in a pool, won’t even go to school most days, abuses his own body and restricts food…and worst of all the child is aggressively self harming his upper body and Dr Kennedys solution for the 13 year old was…. You guessed it…. Double mastectomy. I am floored and deeply saddened. This is a good family with a good kid who have been totally taken in by this person who has built a career and a fortune on harming kids and I want her exposed. I really hope this podcast gains traction and these ideas and conversations spread to the coverage in the MSM. How can we be doing this to our kids.
On religion and trans. Are you all familiar with the Unitarian universalists latest national meeting. Despite being non credal they adopted a business resolution to make it more authoritative that expounds on the holy divine nature of trans and non binary people and commits to defending medical transition services with no safeguards and admonishes members to support a a group that helps you ng people cross state lines to relocate or receive services. To underscore this I have collected clips of some of the statements our clergy areaking about the spiritual place trans people occupy. They sound nuts. I left active ministry years ago but while still active I gained a great deal of name recognition as the author of a beloved curriculum, familiarity with an illustrated advent calendar I produced for churches to use,and my leadership in the initial work to make our congregations more welcoming to persona with various disabilities and mental health issues. (In response to Ben's query on religion and trans. I would love to engage more on this at any time.)
Fascinating! I know Heterdorx and Blocked and Reported have had episodes on the religious aspect, specifically an interview with Heterdorx and a segment on a specific UU church on BarPod.
The UU, UCC and liberal Presbyterian churches in my city all have progress flags and “affirming” messages. Feels very faith based.
The liberal churches are all over being trans inclusive to get young members.
Is that Nina’s original of “The Disenchanter” on the wall behind Cori? 😜
Sorry to comment again, but you brought up religion at the end of the episode. One thing I’ve been mulling over lately is the idea that “the new priests are the old priests.” By which I mean, to the extent that humanity seems to have an innate priest/nun/monk class - probably in itself a very controversial idea, maybe I instead should say, those most drawn to that type of role - it overlaps heavily with the people we now think of as members of the LGBTQ+.
I can remember at 10-years-old or so being quite distressed when I started to develop breasts. It took me for than five years to accept this as normal. I think this is very common in girls. I would even go so far as to say that early puberty for a majority of girls is at least anxiety inducing if not outright fear inducing. Sadly, instead of helping these girls accept their bodies, for many, we have a subculture that is now telling girls that if they don't want to grow up to be a woman, they can grow up to be a man.
Clearly, there are also some boys who are distressed with male puberty. These boys are fewer in number than the distressed girls, but many of them are also suffering at the hands of the biology denialists.
I think Hakeem's comments are insightful, but like O'Malley, I am still gathering information on these various aspects of gender dysphoria. I would like to hear from other psychiatrists who are outside the immediate affirmation model for gender dysphoria who are working toward understanding the complexities of gender dysphoria.
My initial comment here stems from my conversations with a subset of radical feminists who have argued that transgendered people simply don't exist. While I consider myself to be a feminist in that I believe in advocacy for equal pay for women, maternity leave, protected female spaces, addressing violence against women, etc.), I do not consider myself to be a radical feminist in that I am not de facto "trans-exclusionary". I think we need to admit that some who consider themselves to be transgendered hold a deeply seated genuine belief which may stem from autism or some other neurological condition. At the same time, there are those who Hakeem categorizes as fetishistic transvestites who are determined to enter women's spaces. It's a complex picture that the law, society and even medical professionals have not yet grasped.