I try to be mindful not to comment-bomb these episodes (I don’t have any particular standing to talk about this other than some mild personal stakes and having been in the rabbit hole for the last nine months), but 1) these conversations have been consistently been very thought-provoking, and 2) I appreciate having a place to share my own reactions with people who are also in the weeds on this. Other than my poor wife, who agrees with me but is otherwise not engaged in the way I have been…
For a while now I’ve wanted to hear a conversation about how lefty-GCs (for lack of a better term) engage with the right on this, right-wing media in particular. This is the closest to that I’ve heard so far, so thank you! One thing I would still like to hear about in more detail is how you think about your boundaries around this (i.e. who are you willing or not willing to engage with), again thinking specifically around media outlets or personalities more than politicians or organizations. To give some examples, on one end are conservative-leaning reporters who do excellent good-faith work like Brandon Showalter who I recently learned about from Jenny Poyer Ackerman’s podcast (a conservative evangelical who also has some sincerely held views on things like gay marriage and abortion rights that are very different than mine) and Abigail Shrirer. On the other end is, say, the Tucker Carlsons and Sean Hannitys of the world, who I believe will cynically exploit any wedge issue they can find for ratings. Or, God help us, even the Alex Jones-types… Where is the line, and how do you think about where to draw it? I have my thoughts about how I think I would if I were someone remotely important enough to be faced with making this decision in the real world. But I’m not and can't fathom how I ever would be, so I’m curious to hear the thoughts of people who’ve actually had to. I’m sure it isn’t easy.
Two things for Eliza: 1) “The Story of Estrangement” was heartbreaking, enormously compassionate, and beautifully written. My kids are still very little, but it’s not hard to put myself on those parents’ shoes and it hurts to think about. 2) At the risk of telling the world’s foremost meteorologist that the sky is blue, are you familiar with r/honesttransgender? If not, it’s an interesting mix of opinions, which leads to some interesting conversations in the comments. I’ve learned a lot from popping in there every so often. Recommended for anyone interested on online spaces where transgender-related issues are discussed.
Maybe you're correct that some people are opportunists and are not sincere--but then many or most politicians and pundits would fall into that category. Since I'm not an activist (and having to make politically strategic decisions), I am looking for sincere voices to listen to or read. Heterodorx has pioneered in featuring many very sincere voices from all over the political and theoretical map.
It would have been more accurate, when the regs rewriting Title IX were first proposed to make the headline "Biden administration proposes to scrap protections for female students".
Quick thought about the difference between Right and Left.
This is very much a UK perspective, so I don't know if it will resonate as much in the US.
My feeling is that the Right generally thinks the Left is wrong.
The Left think the Right is evil.
They think they have a monopoly on morality.
For instance, supposing we were discussing policies to help the poor.
The Right would think that the approach the Left take is wrong, and not actually helping the poor (e.g. by increasing benefits)
The Left think the Right don't actually WANT to help the poor.
This is one of the reasons I have been disappointed in the Left over the last decade or so. There doesn't seem to be the same courtesy afforded to the Right that the Right affords the Left.
(It wasn't always this way, though...
I remember the 80's when the Right would routinely dismiss the left as Looney, and were very scornful. But it seems to have changed over the last 10-15 years.
Like Eliza, I also used to think that if the Right was criticizing trans stuff, they must be wrong about it so I must suppress my vague worries. This is still holding back so many liberals/progressives. I feel so frustrated by that.
Like Lisa, I think coalitions are beautiful. I loved seeing those images from the steps of the Supreme Court during Skremeti.
I agree that there seems to be more concern about purity tests on the Left than on the Right; more all-or-nothing. It could be because some people on the Right are less interesting in shunning nonbelievers than in converting.
The comment about how this issue is increasing interest in Christianity hit home. I have family members who have just joined the Catholic Church. It seems (mostly not entirely) a refuge from gender identity. Like Lisa, I have no idea how to be religious but I sure do see the appeal in a way I never had before.
This was a very thought provoking conversation, as usual. I appreciated the willingness to engage in respectful dissent, liked Cori’s challenges on a couple of points made by Lisa and Lisa’s receptiveness to that. Just to share my own observations on different generations of feminism and how this informs one’s feelings about gender ideology, I’ve been reflecting through following this issue on my own willingness to ultimately break ranks with my professional peers to question gender ideology that I’m sure relates partly to my belonging to an older generation of women like many GC’s who grew up with second wave feminism on the one hand, yet I returned to school in my late 20’s through mid thirties to complete graduate education at a time when post modernism had taken hold in the late 80’s and 90’s which I also fully embraced—along with the introduction of trans rights as the next civil rights movement—and only in hindsight do I realize the conflict between the two, it’s as if I was just blindly trusting/accepting that this was the next stage in a natural linear progression of liberal disruption of social norms, whereas I now see the problems of the excesses of leftist ideology rooted in third wave feminism and more recently the so called social justice movement—this an insight which I owe largely to gender critical feminists including so called radfems and I am beyond frustrated with the mainstream media and legacy liberal orgs with their refusal to allow any critical thought on this subject but like Lisa I dislike the idea of being subjected to purity testing or succumbing to moral panic promoted by any side in this movement which only reinforces my feeling of political homelessness and dis-ease with where I fit in to this new movement against gender ideology and “wokeism” because I do value diversity after all is said and done
I haven’t thrown out my distrust of the regressiveness of ideology and politics of the right as far as sex-based stereotyping of social roles and sexism and now I also see the left as no better and ironically a mirror image of that (although there is zero awareness of this on the left whereas at least the conservatives are more willing to admit it) and so I find myself uneasy about what appears to be a full-on embrace of and almost crushing on the conservative right (politicians and media) by disillusioned former leftists and I wonder how long it will take them to realize it’s not any better over there…and the honeymoon will inevitably be over
My solution for now is to endorse bipartisanship which I also wish could be seen as more “cool” instead of a weakness, and even if it’s not going to get the same number of “likes” in the conversation at large especially on Twitter/X I do appreciate hearing that I’m not alone, and your representation that we don’t have to all agree on everything within this coalition is helpful to me so thank you 🙏
I'm not sure if boundaries around men wearing dresses in public is a TERF vs Christian issue or more like a safeguarding, social norms and maturity issue. I'm really just focused on how philosophy students and teachers, wealthy emboldened AGP's and the overly permissive have too much time on their hands; and how to protect children from a crumbling society created by them. I thought the Free to Be You and Me revelation of the 70's settled that there is no one way to be a girl or boy? After all this gendercraze and exaggerated stereotyping, the gender nonconforming kid is now converted to trans. Some say we should let boys dress in dresses at school, but it just seems like social transitioning at this point. Don't we still have to teach our boys to be men? Yes, let's bring back the Tomboy and some boys are built for ballet (I'm not sure the obsession that these particular kids will most likely turn out gay should be a focal point either), but I'm not sure sending a 4th or 5th grade boy to school in dangling earrings is the right idea. I think a level of parent permissiveness took things too far. Where I live, kids are force fed LGBTQ+++ in every area of their lives that the activists have figured out how to infiltrate (half the kids in MS have a special identity before they even know what having sex is). All the aftercare staff at my kids old elementary school were grownups trying to pretend to be something that they weren't. Kids were forced to refer to a big huge dude dressed like a women, Miss Amelia. There has to be social norms or we are lying to children and gaslighting them. Btw, Mr. Amelia was also the chaperone for overnight trips. Parents like us that grew up totally accepting of lesbian and gays, want to gag every time we see another rainbow at this point. It's sad! Honestly, being woke and super left seems like something one grows out of, especially after having a family. https://www.seattleschools.org/departments/health-education/lgbtq/k-5-gender-lessons/
Radical feminism as such wasn’t very popular when I first became interested in feminism and started reading/partaking in online feminist communities circa 2003. The dominant strain was liberal/third-wave feminism. Over the next decade or so, a battle seemed to be waged between the liberal and critical social justice approaches to feminism, with the CSJ approach achieving victory in the early 2010s. The intersectional approach diluted feminism from being woman-centered to “all oppressed peoples”-“centered.” (“Centered” also on quotes because, really, how can you center such an incoherent group?) There was a brief period where the man/woman binary was dominant within intersectional feminism (which many people now characterize as having been a “radfem” thing, but no, intersectional feminism technically contains that intersection as well), but this quickly shifted to being man/woman based on gender only, not sex. Since sex was being de-emphasized/erased within intersectional feminism, women who did find sex relevant were shunted into radical feminism/“TERF”ism. This meant a lot of women who didn’t otherwise have an ideological connection to the earlier radical feminist movement were suddenly finding themselves “radical feminists.”
I’d noticed this tension within the intersectional model of feminism much earlier. From a letter I wrote my sister a few years ago, “One odd memory that floats up, was from when I first learned about intersectionality in Women Studies 101. This would have been 2004 or so. The way it seemed to work to me as a nineteen-year-old was that the more marginalized you were, the more valid and true your voice was. (My apologies to Kimberlé Crenshaw.) Able-bodied white women of a questionable sexual orientation like me, our thoughts and voices were okay, worth listening to somewhat, but still suspect. “But if you were a disabled, black, lesbian, trans woman… wait, a trans woman, that’s a male person, right?” I mused, “Seems weird they would be more oppressed than a female person under this framework. Hm. So maybe a trans man? But if they’re living in the world as a man… I guess it depends on how people see them.” I don’t think those were the exact words of the original thought, but I do distinctly remember having it. I couldn't square the circle, so to speak, so I left it and moved on to something else. An early thoughtcrime.”
Also, I often find myself wondering how many of the women who had “Male Tears” mugs back in 2013 or whatever are now non-binary or transmasc. I get the impression this is a non-zero number. 😅
I try to be mindful not to comment-bomb these episodes (I don’t have any particular standing to talk about this other than some mild personal stakes and having been in the rabbit hole for the last nine months), but 1) these conversations have been consistently been very thought-provoking, and 2) I appreciate having a place to share my own reactions with people who are also in the weeds on this. Other than my poor wife, who agrees with me but is otherwise not engaged in the way I have been…
For a while now I’ve wanted to hear a conversation about how lefty-GCs (for lack of a better term) engage with the right on this, right-wing media in particular. This is the closest to that I’ve heard so far, so thank you! One thing I would still like to hear about in more detail is how you think about your boundaries around this (i.e. who are you willing or not willing to engage with), again thinking specifically around media outlets or personalities more than politicians or organizations. To give some examples, on one end are conservative-leaning reporters who do excellent good-faith work like Brandon Showalter who I recently learned about from Jenny Poyer Ackerman’s podcast (a conservative evangelical who also has some sincerely held views on things like gay marriage and abortion rights that are very different than mine) and Abigail Shrirer. On the other end is, say, the Tucker Carlsons and Sean Hannitys of the world, who I believe will cynically exploit any wedge issue they can find for ratings. Or, God help us, even the Alex Jones-types… Where is the line, and how do you think about where to draw it? I have my thoughts about how I think I would if I were someone remotely important enough to be faced with making this decision in the real world. But I’m not and can't fathom how I ever would be, so I’m curious to hear the thoughts of people who’ve actually had to. I’m sure it isn’t easy.
Two things for Eliza: 1) “The Story of Estrangement” was heartbreaking, enormously compassionate, and beautifully written. My kids are still very little, but it’s not hard to put myself on those parents’ shoes and it hurts to think about. 2) At the risk of telling the world’s foremost meteorologist that the sky is blue, are you familiar with r/honesttransgender? If not, it’s an interesting mix of opinions, which leads to some interesting conversations in the comments. I’ve learned a lot from popping in there every so often. Recommended for anyone interested on online spaces where transgender-related issues are discussed.
1) Thank you! Yes, it was heartbreaking.
2) Yes, I am! I often go there to see different perspectives on points of contention. I would not really say it lives up to its name.
Oh go ahead and comment bomb! You make interesting points!
Brandon Showalter was on Cori's podcast, Heterodorx: good interview.
https://www.heterodorx.com/podcast/143-brandon-showalter/
Maybe you're correct that some people are opportunists and are not sincere--but then many or most politicians and pundits would fall into that category. Since I'm not an activist (and having to make politically strategic decisions), I am looking for sincere voices to listen to or read. Heterodorx has pioneered in featuring many very sincere voices from all over the political and theoretical map.
LOVE Heterodorx :)
It would have been more accurate, when the regs rewriting Title IX were first proposed to make the headline "Biden administration proposes to scrap protections for female students".
Quick thought about the difference between Right and Left.
This is very much a UK perspective, so I don't know if it will resonate as much in the US.
My feeling is that the Right generally thinks the Left is wrong.
The Left think the Right is evil.
They think they have a monopoly on morality.
For instance, supposing we were discussing policies to help the poor.
The Right would think that the approach the Left take is wrong, and not actually helping the poor (e.g. by increasing benefits)
The Left think the Right don't actually WANT to help the poor.
This is one of the reasons I have been disappointed in the Left over the last decade or so. There doesn't seem to be the same courtesy afforded to the Right that the Right affords the Left.
(It wasn't always this way, though...
I remember the 80's when the Right would routinely dismiss the left as Looney, and were very scornful. But it seems to have changed over the last 10-15 years.
Fun to hear intro banjo music when I just learned that Stella O’M plays the banjo every night!
Just realized it's a version of 'Over the Rainbow' !
I love Stella. She has really been a unifier and has taken a lot of heat too.
Like Eliza, I also used to think that if the Right was criticizing trans stuff, they must be wrong about it so I must suppress my vague worries. This is still holding back so many liberals/progressives. I feel so frustrated by that.
Like Lisa, I think coalitions are beautiful. I loved seeing those images from the steps of the Supreme Court during Skremeti.
I agree that there seems to be more concern about purity tests on the Left than on the Right; more all-or-nothing. It could be because some people on the Right are less interesting in shunning nonbelievers than in converting.
The comment about how this issue is increasing interest in Christianity hit home. I have family members who have just joined the Catholic Church. It seems (mostly not entirely) a refuge from gender identity. Like Lisa, I have no idea how to be religious but I sure do see the appeal in a way I never had before.
This was a very thought provoking conversation, as usual. I appreciated the willingness to engage in respectful dissent, liked Cori’s challenges on a couple of points made by Lisa and Lisa’s receptiveness to that. Just to share my own observations on different generations of feminism and how this informs one’s feelings about gender ideology, I’ve been reflecting through following this issue on my own willingness to ultimately break ranks with my professional peers to question gender ideology that I’m sure relates partly to my belonging to an older generation of women like many GC’s who grew up with second wave feminism on the one hand, yet I returned to school in my late 20’s through mid thirties to complete graduate education at a time when post modernism had taken hold in the late 80’s and 90’s which I also fully embraced—along with the introduction of trans rights as the next civil rights movement—and only in hindsight do I realize the conflict between the two, it’s as if I was just blindly trusting/accepting that this was the next stage in a natural linear progression of liberal disruption of social norms, whereas I now see the problems of the excesses of leftist ideology rooted in third wave feminism and more recently the so called social justice movement—this an insight which I owe largely to gender critical feminists including so called radfems and I am beyond frustrated with the mainstream media and legacy liberal orgs with their refusal to allow any critical thought on this subject but like Lisa I dislike the idea of being subjected to purity testing or succumbing to moral panic promoted by any side in this movement which only reinforces my feeling of political homelessness and dis-ease with where I fit in to this new movement against gender ideology and “wokeism” because I do value diversity after all is said and done
I haven’t thrown out my distrust of the regressiveness of ideology and politics of the right as far as sex-based stereotyping of social roles and sexism and now I also see the left as no better and ironically a mirror image of that (although there is zero awareness of this on the left whereas at least the conservatives are more willing to admit it) and so I find myself uneasy about what appears to be a full-on embrace of and almost crushing on the conservative right (politicians and media) by disillusioned former leftists and I wonder how long it will take them to realize it’s not any better over there…and the honeymoon will inevitably be over
My solution for now is to endorse bipartisanship which I also wish could be seen as more “cool” instead of a weakness, and even if it’s not going to get the same number of “likes” in the conversation at large especially on Twitter/X I do appreciate hearing that I’m not alone, and your representation that we don’t have to all agree on everything within this coalition is helpful to me so thank you 🙏
I'm not sure if boundaries around men wearing dresses in public is a TERF vs Christian issue or more like a safeguarding, social norms and maturity issue. I'm really just focused on how philosophy students and teachers, wealthy emboldened AGP's and the overly permissive have too much time on their hands; and how to protect children from a crumbling society created by them. I thought the Free to Be You and Me revelation of the 70's settled that there is no one way to be a girl or boy? After all this gendercraze and exaggerated stereotyping, the gender nonconforming kid is now converted to trans. Some say we should let boys dress in dresses at school, but it just seems like social transitioning at this point. Don't we still have to teach our boys to be men? Yes, let's bring back the Tomboy and some boys are built for ballet (I'm not sure the obsession that these particular kids will most likely turn out gay should be a focal point either), but I'm not sure sending a 4th or 5th grade boy to school in dangling earrings is the right idea. I think a level of parent permissiveness took things too far. Where I live, kids are force fed LGBTQ+++ in every area of their lives that the activists have figured out how to infiltrate (half the kids in MS have a special identity before they even know what having sex is). All the aftercare staff at my kids old elementary school were grownups trying to pretend to be something that they weren't. Kids were forced to refer to a big huge dude dressed like a women, Miss Amelia. There has to be social norms or we are lying to children and gaslighting them. Btw, Mr. Amelia was also the chaperone for overnight trips. Parents like us that grew up totally accepting of lesbian and gays, want to gag every time we see another rainbow at this point. It's sad! Honestly, being woke and super left seems like something one grows out of, especially after having a family. https://www.seattleschools.org/departments/health-education/lgbtq/k-5-gender-lessons/
Radical feminism as such wasn’t very popular when I first became interested in feminism and started reading/partaking in online feminist communities circa 2003. The dominant strain was liberal/third-wave feminism. Over the next decade or so, a battle seemed to be waged between the liberal and critical social justice approaches to feminism, with the CSJ approach achieving victory in the early 2010s. The intersectional approach diluted feminism from being woman-centered to “all oppressed peoples”-“centered.” (“Centered” also on quotes because, really, how can you center such an incoherent group?) There was a brief period where the man/woman binary was dominant within intersectional feminism (which many people now characterize as having been a “radfem” thing, but no, intersectional feminism technically contains that intersection as well), but this quickly shifted to being man/woman based on gender only, not sex. Since sex was being de-emphasized/erased within intersectional feminism, women who did find sex relevant were shunted into radical feminism/“TERF”ism. This meant a lot of women who didn’t otherwise have an ideological connection to the earlier radical feminist movement were suddenly finding themselves “radical feminists.”
I’d noticed this tension within the intersectional model of feminism much earlier. From a letter I wrote my sister a few years ago, “One odd memory that floats up, was from when I first learned about intersectionality in Women Studies 101. This would have been 2004 or so. The way it seemed to work to me as a nineteen-year-old was that the more marginalized you were, the more valid and true your voice was. (My apologies to Kimberlé Crenshaw.) Able-bodied white women of a questionable sexual orientation like me, our thoughts and voices were okay, worth listening to somewhat, but still suspect. “But if you were a disabled, black, lesbian, trans woman… wait, a trans woman, that’s a male person, right?” I mused, “Seems weird they would be more oppressed than a female person under this framework. Hm. So maybe a trans man? But if they’re living in the world as a man… I guess it depends on how people see them.” I don’t think those were the exact words of the original thought, but I do distinctly remember having it. I couldn't square the circle, so to speak, so I left it and moved on to something else. An early thoughtcrime.”
Also, I often find myself wondering how many of the women who had “Male Tears” mugs back in 2013 or whatever are now non-binary or transmasc. I get the impression this is a non-zero number. 😅
I would love you to finalize the name and make it a podcast! (if it isn't already, but guessing not)
Love the opening. 🤣
It's like your version of the couch gag in The Simpsons...