Is the widespread adoption of general ideology simply a rebranded form of narcissism “rainbow narcissism”? If we assume that adherents to these ideologies are motivated by self-interest, and their behavior aligns with common characteristics attributed to narcissists - detachment from reality and an attempt to impose their distorted view on others - is it not possible that they’re merely rebranding a toxic mental state as a philosophical or ideological framework?
Thank you for another excellent (and at times very funny) podcast! An observation: When Jamie said the girls' team was told not to bring their trophies in because it upset the boys... well, welcome to patriarchy (or use whatever term you prefer). That's just one of the obvious signs of where and how we've lived, for centuries. It's not radical feminism to say this either, it's just the way it is, the way it has been. It has its effect on boys too, think about it. How else can you fully explain the nonconforming male experiences of Ben and Cori as well as girls like Jamie and probably just about every kid and adult since this all began. See it or don't see it, it's still a huge part of human lives and it's not good for us. Egalitarian tribes do not do this to their children. Nonconformity can be a strength, not a weakness. Diversity bolsters survival and dare I say, happiness. LGB is natural, it can be helpful even. The tribe will still reproduce, will not over-reproduce and probably also not go out and hunt down and destroy other tribes (though some would say that's a drawback to that tribe's survival long-term). Anyway, sorry for what's turned out to be a rant. Keep on going, good people!❤️👍🏼
P.S. When Jamie feels shame at the way she went along with the pronoun thing at work, it's their shame, not hers. It's group intimidation by people of low social intelligence. Genocides have happened sadly because of such intimidation. So glad she made it out of that and has become the hero she has. All of you are, in your own unique ways, heroes. The world needs more of you.
Hmm, lots being processed this week. I found that interesting. It's not strictly "informed," but personal conjectures, like Cori's about (many?) adult TIMs wanting to vicariously enjoy the childhood feminization they never got, are important to raise. I guess the problem is that they'll remain conjecures without some science to back them up. Still, that where most science begins.
Jamie, your story made me feel angry at the homophobic society that caused you so much grief and had you teetering on the edge of the 'black hole' of trans. Your whistle-blowing article was one of the most impressive things I came across as I was investigating the phenomenon and wondering why there seemed to be people telling me ridiculous things (beyond the event horizon, I now realise).
I object to the 'teach your kids to skin a squirrel' macho bullshit. Teach your kids about biology and ecology, and to be vegetarians.
I have a feeling that if Jamie had pushed Cori at bit harder about the LotR show she's watching things would've descended into a total nerd fight of the sort we haven't seen since the days of the old Star Wars vs Star Trek battles. My LotR friends are all basically checked out on shows like RoP, and that new animated film, kinda like how my Star Wars friends are all checked out on Disney Star Wars...
I'm seven minutes into this and it's disorganized, confusing and boring. Your banter is not as funny as you think it is either. But I'll stick with it to get to the main topic.
Jamie’s insights were striking, particularly the conditioning effect she described from the constant incantation of pronouns where she once worked. As Jamie (and perhaps others) noted about this, we all think we are immune from such conditioning, but in truth none of us are immune.
I have named you the Fabulous Five. This discussion was really thought provoking, from Lisa’s observations about connection to the natural world as immunization against gender ideology, to Jamie’s reflections on the specific ways this ideology captures lesbians, to Corinna’s surprising claim that adult trans-identifying males uphold feminized boys, not women, as their ideal. I’m looking forward to your next episode!
Listening to this conversation it is so clear to me why I sometimes feel so helpless when working with trans identifying young people. Presenting them with facts about the natural world (e.g. clownfish change sex *in order to* reproduce while medical transition can make reproduction impossible) often has the exact opposite of the intended effect of supporting critical thought and loosening the ideological vice grip. A presentation of facts can actually undo years of work building a therapeutic relationship. One of the first things I find myself telling parents of trans identified kids is to stop sending them articles and podcasts about the harms and evils of transition and to stop debating with them about gender ideology.
I intuit that you're mostly right about this. I've noticed that even arguing with adults about almost any position they are emotionally invested in tends to entrench them deeper, as they cycle round all the faulty logic supporting their beliefs. As an ex-counsellor who followed (or tried to!) the Person-Centered Therapy of Carl Rogers, I also know the value of trusting another person's process, listening, asking them how things appear and feel from their point of view. However, I wonder what positive (i.e. active) interventions you think might be helpful. In Person-Centered Therapy, one's own opinions and feelings are also important to own, and the challenge is to find the right balance between sharing those and just listening and trying to remain neutral and unconditionally accepting. One approach that comes to mind is to emphasize the ownership of feelings about the situation, so rather than saying such-and-such procedure "is dangerous and leads to tragedy...", it helps to say, "I'm frightened," or "I'm worried," which switches the other's attention towards questioning why, allowing them to find their way into your head instead of trying to shut you out.
I think it is desist by mature adulthood-- I think one of the studies follows them to age 20, for instance? And adulthood is delayed for ASD people, and men mature later, etc etc...
"Interestingly, the followed-up desisters did not pinpoint early puberty as the crucial period: “In response to our question at what point in time the desisting participants noticed that their cross-gender preferences and feelings had decreased or disappeared, most answered that the change took place upon entry into secondary school. Only few answered that it took place during the first stages of puberty” (Wallien & Cohen-Kettenis, 2008, p. 1422)."
Is the widespread adoption of general ideology simply a rebranded form of narcissism “rainbow narcissism”? If we assume that adherents to these ideologies are motivated by self-interest, and their behavior aligns with common characteristics attributed to narcissists - detachment from reality and an attempt to impose their distorted view on others - is it not possible that they’re merely rebranding a toxic mental state as a philosophical or ideological framework?
Thank you for another excellent (and at times very funny) podcast! An observation: When Jamie said the girls' team was told not to bring their trophies in because it upset the boys... well, welcome to patriarchy (or use whatever term you prefer). That's just one of the obvious signs of where and how we've lived, for centuries. It's not radical feminism to say this either, it's just the way it is, the way it has been. It has its effect on boys too, think about it. How else can you fully explain the nonconforming male experiences of Ben and Cori as well as girls like Jamie and probably just about every kid and adult since this all began. See it or don't see it, it's still a huge part of human lives and it's not good for us. Egalitarian tribes do not do this to their children. Nonconformity can be a strength, not a weakness. Diversity bolsters survival and dare I say, happiness. LGB is natural, it can be helpful even. The tribe will still reproduce, will not over-reproduce and probably also not go out and hunt down and destroy other tribes (though some would say that's a drawback to that tribe's survival long-term). Anyway, sorry for what's turned out to be a rant. Keep on going, good people!❤️👍🏼
P.S. When Jamie feels shame at the way she went along with the pronoun thing at work, it's their shame, not hers. It's group intimidation by people of low social intelligence. Genocides have happened sadly because of such intimidation. So glad she made it out of that and has become the hero she has. All of you are, in your own unique ways, heroes. The world needs more of you.
Was Cori thinking Kim Petras as the German trans singer? Transition started pretty early and has had a bad effect on his/her health (or so I heard).
Hmm, lots being processed this week. I found that interesting. It's not strictly "informed," but personal conjectures, like Cori's about (many?) adult TIMs wanting to vicariously enjoy the childhood feminization they never got, are important to raise. I guess the problem is that they'll remain conjecures without some science to back them up. Still, that where most science begins.
Jamie, your story made me feel angry at the homophobic society that caused you so much grief and had you teetering on the edge of the 'black hole' of trans. Your whistle-blowing article was one of the most impressive things I came across as I was investigating the phenomenon and wondering why there seemed to be people telling me ridiculous things (beyond the event horizon, I now realise).
I object to the 'teach your kids to skin a squirrel' macho bullshit. Teach your kids about biology and ecology, and to be vegetarians.
Sorry that was all a bit mangled. I'm toast too.
I have a feeling that if Jamie had pushed Cori at bit harder about the LotR show she's watching things would've descended into a total nerd fight of the sort we haven't seen since the days of the old Star Wars vs Star Trek battles. My LotR friends are all basically checked out on shows like RoP, and that new animated film, kinda like how my Star Wars friends are all checked out on Disney Star Wars...
16 minutes in and still waiting for content. Just getting annoying giggling.
I'm seven minutes into this and it's disorganized, confusing and boring. Your banter is not as funny as you think it is either. But I'll stick with it to get to the main topic.
Cori, I recently watched what happened at the Braver Angels workshop in which you participated, and I too have complaints!
Jamie’s insights were striking, particularly the conditioning effect she described from the constant incantation of pronouns where she once worked. As Jamie (and perhaps others) noted about this, we all think we are immune from such conditioning, but in truth none of us are immune.
I have named you the Fabulous Five. This discussion was really thought provoking, from Lisa’s observations about connection to the natural world as immunization against gender ideology, to Jamie’s reflections on the specific ways this ideology captures lesbians, to Corinna’s surprising claim that adult trans-identifying males uphold feminized boys, not women, as their ideal. I’m looking forward to your next episode!
I agree!
Listening to this conversation it is so clear to me why I sometimes feel so helpless when working with trans identifying young people. Presenting them with facts about the natural world (e.g. clownfish change sex *in order to* reproduce while medical transition can make reproduction impossible) often has the exact opposite of the intended effect of supporting critical thought and loosening the ideological vice grip. A presentation of facts can actually undo years of work building a therapeutic relationship. One of the first things I find myself telling parents of trans identified kids is to stop sending them articles and podcasts about the harms and evils of transition and to stop debating with them about gender ideology.
I intuit that you're mostly right about this. I've noticed that even arguing with adults about almost any position they are emotionally invested in tends to entrench them deeper, as they cycle round all the faulty logic supporting their beliefs. As an ex-counsellor who followed (or tried to!) the Person-Centered Therapy of Carl Rogers, I also know the value of trusting another person's process, listening, asking them how things appear and feel from their point of view. However, I wonder what positive (i.e. active) interventions you think might be helpful. In Person-Centered Therapy, one's own opinions and feelings are also important to own, and the challenge is to find the right balance between sharing those and just listening and trying to remain neutral and unconditionally accepting. One approach that comes to mind is to emphasize the ownership of feelings about the situation, so rather than saying such-and-such procedure "is dangerous and leads to tragedy...", it helps to say, "I'm frightened," or "I'm worried," which switches the other's attention towards questioning why, allowing them to find their way into your head instead of trying to shut you out.
That recommendation to parents of trans-identifying kids is sage advice, especially given the oppositional attitude of many teenagers.
I think it is desist by mature adulthood-- I think one of the studies follows them to age 20, for instance? And adulthood is delayed for ASD people, and men mature later, etc etc...
if they are gender dysphoric in adolescence, one still doesn't know what they are likely to do...Byrne, 2024: "Another Myth of Persistence?", https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-03005-1
for example, he mentions:
"Interestingly, the followed-up desisters did not pinpoint early puberty as the crucial period: “In response to our question at what point in time the desisting participants noticed that their cross-gender preferences and feelings had decreased or disappeared, most answered that the change took place upon entry into secondary school. Only few answered that it took place during the first stages of puberty” (Wallien & Cohen-Kettenis, 2008, p. 1422)."