I like the name informed dissent, I appreciate the play on informed consent and think it’s apt. The dissent that each of you have come to is from a place of consideration, research and information- and I have been able to use all that knowledge to develop my own understanding and stance on the issue of gender ideology and its real world consequences.
I want to add when I heard Cori talk about origin stories, I heard a devastation that I haven’t heard before in other interviews. I just want to say, I hear it and thank you.
So many thoughts about what was covered here. But nobody is here to read a random commenter's essay, so I'll try to keep things short.
First, a topic I would love to hear the hosts' take on: whether/how much to engage with partisan right-wing media on gender issues. I get that they are the only ones that will take the gender critical view seriously. At the same time, their viewers are not the ones whose minds need to be changed. Meanwhile, a history of appearances on, say, Tucker Carlson's show or the like, immediately makes that person suspicious to the the moderate lefties whose minds could potentially be changed on this. Obviously not a dilemma I'm facing, and I have no idea what the right balance is there. I know this is something Jamie has had to think through (Colin Wright and Carol Hooven also come to mind), and I'm sure different people have different views on this. I'd be very interested to hear a discussion about where that balance is between getting your message out at all vs. remaining credible to the people whose minds need to be changed for all of this to finally end.
Second, my own journey down the rabbit hole if you're curious. I always thought something was odd about the gender issue and was bothered by the obvious thought and language policing around it. But I was otherwise a polite lefty who got my information from polite lefty news sources and knew what the "correct" answer was on this. I happened to learn about the release of the final Cass Review this past spring through one news source I follow outside of the bubble. I was curious how traditional news sources were covering it, and was stunned to see that it was just ignored and memory holed. In looking for non-partisan right-wing sources I felt I could trust to cover this in an informed way (this was not easy and took a while) I came across Gender A Wider Lens, and the rest is history. I now feel very betrayed by and angry with the news sources and politicians I used to trust, which is an unhappy place to be.
Re puberty blockers research: Joanne Olsen Kennedy. $9 funding and ar study designed by herself and her team. Refused to publish results. Speaks for itself
Very interesting podcast so far, I’m getting little bits here and there of additional context by listening to these even though tbh, on a factual level I’m already pretty well informed usually on the topics covered from obsessively following you all on Twitter (lol) thereby admitting to my own monomaniacal attention to all things “gender critical” I prefer to say I’m part of a movement or coalition of people trying to restore medical ethics to the treatment of gender dysphoria if I’m to describe myself, fwiw
Two comments: one regarding Eliza’s origin story, I find it fascinating that she thought about studying a social history of self-diagnosis (isn’t that what she’s now made herself an niche expert on in terms of having studied self ID of gender incongruence from a sociocultural POV? That’s in fact how I see her, a cultural anthropologist of our times) And a question: On her undergrad interest in Ideological capture of medical profession in Nazi Germany (eugenics), and understanding how doctors came to see killing people as healing… (healing what ???) I couldn’t make out the rest of that sentence, the audio kept getting interrupted when she was speaking but I’m curious to know more
Second I found listening to the following excerpt from Cori’s origin story particularly impactful so I rewound and listened again and wrote it down verbatim here
Cori Cohn (In response to LSD): “It’s almost not even that they’re told that there’s something wrong with their body, in my opinion, it’s more that they are told that there is a ritual, a body ritual, that they can undertake that if they go through it, will bestow upon them the properties of the thing they’re trying to transcend to achieve…So it’s not “there’s something wrong”, it’s “here’s a sacrifice, to become better, or to become whole”…”But
it doesn’t lead to any special improvement, you end up in a special kind of hell”. Boom. I have no other words to describe the impact of that statement other than wow, that’s a profound statement you just made and I’m going remember that, that kind of raw honesty that challenges us to stop and think, really think about what that really means—to live in that reality, like I remember hearing Sinead in the first Detransition Awareness Day webinar and was struck by her raw unapologetic righteous rage which was directed at gender clinicians (something like what Cori expressed in this episode towards Jack Turban), and she expressed to her audience with her face right up close to the camera, in that characteristic pull no punches style of hers, something to the effect of, “You have no bloody right”…you should be ashamed of yourselves”
That’s not a direct quote necessarily but I was shaken to my core, and that is the kind of personal testimony that is hard to hear but I think can change hearts if more people could hear those voices of lived experience, or maybe they won’t care or they’ll find a way to rationalize it away, but it certainly has moved me and I thank Cori and others who have helped me in my own understanding and awareness of the harm that cannot be undone for so many and which motivates me to continue being a part of this community even when I question the way it can feel like an unhealthy obsession at times
This really feels like a support group experience to me that you are all benefitting from on a genuine open level with each other, and I appreciate being allowed access to listen in 🙏
I don't remember exactly which words I used but I was talking about how German medical profession under influence of Nazi ideology came to see killing people as an act of healing to the 'national body' of the Volk
Chilling to contemplate the use of the word “heal” in this context, and how evidently subversive this was yet this is mostly understood in hindsight and out of context
You do seem to have the ideal background and mindset to study the prevailing paradigm of medical treatment of gender identity by directly examining and meticulously documenting the real life impact on the target patient population re: how well or poorly the recipients of this treatment are in fact faring, but the challenge is to report on it contemporaneously (you are yourself a member of society who lives in the same moment in history as your subjects are living in, attempting to report on what will become future history) when the majority are unable or afraid to themselves take that step outside the zeitgeist, without receiving accusations of hyperbole and “moral panic”
I should add that Lisa’s observation that you somehow escaped being cancelled within your program was very astute and I’m still not sure how you did this other than appearing to be a relatively sympathetic and scientific (ie objective) rather than scornful observer—as you say, you try to let the observations speak for themselves, there is no need to embellish what ought to be obvious and damning evidence that people aren’t “healed” and aren’t getting better from this unfolding sociomedical engineering “project” of our time
I honestly think I got away with it because none of my classmates understood the seriousness of the challenge to other beliefs they held (transwomen are women, etc.). They didn't put it all together. So I think they thought it was OK to explore social influence over trans identity and that some young people might be mistaken, but didn't think it through any further than that. If I had had a real trans activist in my cohort, I would have been cancelled.
I also just looked the part. Solid progressive credentials (even though I didn't do any of the woke signalling my classmates tended to go in for), likeable, assumption that we all must surely believe the same things.
Ben, your pot roast recipe is welcome and appreciated! I made one for the first time ever last weekend with a blade roast from my aunt, and now I want to make up for lost time. It’s such a great comfort dish for winter. Also, I harvested 40 lbs. of potatoes from my community garden this summer, so I need to come up with creative ways to use them.
1. “Informed Dissent” is a *great* name. I do also get the appeal of “Gender Home Companion”! (Would it be too much to combine them? “Informed Dissent: A Gender Home Companion”?)
2. Thanks to you all for sharing these conversations. I appreciate each of you tremendously. Am also glad for the reminders—I need them—about avoiding monomaniacal focus & getting exercise regularly.
3. Hearing about Ben’s pot roast prompted memories of my mom’s! Nowadays, since she & I both avoid animal-sourced fare, I’m feeling inspired to try the “Seitan Roast” recipe I found at thehiddenveggies. But if any gender heretics reading this can point to another plant-based recipe you recommend from experience, I’d be grateful—please do.
Thank you for this, and for all you do. I cast my vote for your current title, but will go with whatever you choose. I want to give a shout-out to Jamie for her response to Ben Appel, and to Ben, for his sensitivity to the issue, on whether it's appropriate for him to weigh in on things with which he's concerned that he's not sure affect him directly. I often feel this myself, and I thought Jamie's answer was pitch perfect. I've spent a lot of my life working in various healthcare-related positions. Over and over, it's abundantly apparent that the incentives are perverse, and we all have a stake in pushing back against this. Here's an article on Portugal v. the US that makes the point: https://web.archive.org/web/20241211180040/https://www.statnews.com/2024/12/10/us-health-care-system-reform-how-portugal-spend-less-increased-life-expectancy/
I would add that in addition to what Jaime described as every citizen having a right to have a say in how their money from taxes and insurance premiums is spent, I find the voices of people who don’t have a child on the brink of harm from this societal madness very valuable. They cannot be dismissed as “just” caring about their own child. Whether or not you have your own childhood history that would have made you susceptible to this harmful ideology, caring about others whom you see being hurt by it is noble and helpful to those who could be dismissed as being rabid, overly protective parents.
Good episode. I appreciated Jamie's breakdown about the hierarchy of needs and medical ethics. We each have a right to express our dissent because these policies impact all of us in multiple ways. There are probably other ways too, like being forced to go along with pronoun rituals just to keep a job, but feeling out of integrity about it. It would be helpful as a written piece for folks who are destabilized by the question: how does this really impact YOU? Especially for men and/or those who don't have kids. I also appreciated hearing the origin stories. I like Informed Dissent, because that is what people need and what you all have to offer, being particularly well-informed--but it does not mention gender and there are other Substacks called that. (I was trying to find this and had a hard time.) Maybe a subheading would help. Getting a grip on gender or down the gender rabbit hole or gender for dummies. Or a gender home companion as a subheading if you all really love that.
I started laughing when Ben talked about the pot roast recipe because I was pretty sure I had the exact same recipe! It has been a family favorite for a few years and so easy to make. I checked out the comments and sure enough it was the exact same recipe. It is a good thing to share!
I take some macabre pleasure is my prescience on this issue. I have been monomaniacal since about 2012. I was hearing about trans kids while also learning about child development. I couldn’t square away the two. I remember this article celebrating tomboys. Now the child in the photo is transitioned to a boy. I am dying to know what made the parents go down this path. I know them but I doubt they would talk to me about this. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/fashion/where-have-all-the-tomboys-gone.html
I don't think it's a great loss that the likes of The Guardian are leaving X/Twitter. That paper has been misinforming people since it was set up by traders in slave-picked cotton. When the British government outlawed slavery, they switched to trading in American slave-picked cotton instead. It has never been about reporting the facts.
This is ace - such a great group. I loved Jamie's eloquent reminder that everyone in society has a legitimate voice about how its resources are allocated, including medical resources. And I really enjoy Cori's dry wit. All of you show great courage and intelligence. I look forward to hearing Ben and Jamie's "rabbit-hole" stories.
I'm a sixty-something British man, and I got interested in this weird cultural phenomenon via a wider interest in debunking myths and conspiracy theories, after having a crisis of faith in my Eastern mysticism and turning atheist. So I was just curious about 'gender' and thought I'd talk about it rationally at a forum I used to frequent called Talk Rational. Almost nobody there talks rationally now, and I eventually gave up. Sometimes I suspect arguing with cultists just entrenches them deeper, especially online, or if trust isn't established.
I was fairly obsessed for a while, because it was so hard to comprehend, and I can't leave things alone that puzzle me so deeply until I've dug enough to understand them. I had little idea of the wider Woke culture behind it, or how captured the establishment was, or how extreme things were.
I was horrified to see our own prize possession, the British National Health Service, rewriting its patient information to include 'pregnant parents' and 'chestfeeding' and requiring its staff to enquire what people's pronouns are, and wear their rainbow badge and lanyard at all times (to match the enormous rainbows on the building).
The Trans Terrorists had executed a stealthy coup d'état while everyone was asleep at the wheel. I woke up to find I'm a "racist," and "Nazi," words all having been surreptitiously redefined.
I love that you all have a podcast now!
I like the name informed dissent, I appreciate the play on informed consent and think it’s apt. The dissent that each of you have come to is from a place of consideration, research and information- and I have been able to use all that knowledge to develop my own understanding and stance on the issue of gender ideology and its real world consequences.
I want to add when I heard Cori talk about origin stories, I heard a devastation that I haven’t heard before in other interviews. I just want to say, I hear it and thank you.
Beautifully stated, and I agree.
So many thoughts about what was covered here. But nobody is here to read a random commenter's essay, so I'll try to keep things short.
First, a topic I would love to hear the hosts' take on: whether/how much to engage with partisan right-wing media on gender issues. I get that they are the only ones that will take the gender critical view seriously. At the same time, their viewers are not the ones whose minds need to be changed. Meanwhile, a history of appearances on, say, Tucker Carlson's show or the like, immediately makes that person suspicious to the the moderate lefties whose minds could potentially be changed on this. Obviously not a dilemma I'm facing, and I have no idea what the right balance is there. I know this is something Jamie has had to think through (Colin Wright and Carol Hooven also come to mind), and I'm sure different people have different views on this. I'd be very interested to hear a discussion about where that balance is between getting your message out at all vs. remaining credible to the people whose minds need to be changed for all of this to finally end.
Second, my own journey down the rabbit hole if you're curious. I always thought something was odd about the gender issue and was bothered by the obvious thought and language policing around it. But I was otherwise a polite lefty who got my information from polite lefty news sources and knew what the "correct" answer was on this. I happened to learn about the release of the final Cass Review this past spring through one news source I follow outside of the bubble. I was curious how traditional news sources were covering it, and was stunned to see that it was just ignored and memory holed. In looking for non-partisan right-wing sources I felt I could trust to cover this in an informed way (this was not easy and took a while) I came across Gender A Wider Lens, and the rest is history. I now feel very betrayed by and angry with the news sources and politicians I used to trust, which is an unhappy place to be.
Re puberty blockers research: Joanne Olsen Kennedy. $9 funding and ar study designed by herself and her team. Refused to publish results. Speaks for itself
Very interesting podcast so far, I’m getting little bits here and there of additional context by listening to these even though tbh, on a factual level I’m already pretty well informed usually on the topics covered from obsessively following you all on Twitter (lol) thereby admitting to my own monomaniacal attention to all things “gender critical” I prefer to say I’m part of a movement or coalition of people trying to restore medical ethics to the treatment of gender dysphoria if I’m to describe myself, fwiw
Two comments: one regarding Eliza’s origin story, I find it fascinating that she thought about studying a social history of self-diagnosis (isn’t that what she’s now made herself an niche expert on in terms of having studied self ID of gender incongruence from a sociocultural POV? That’s in fact how I see her, a cultural anthropologist of our times) And a question: On her undergrad interest in Ideological capture of medical profession in Nazi Germany (eugenics), and understanding how doctors came to see killing people as healing… (healing what ???) I couldn’t make out the rest of that sentence, the audio kept getting interrupted when she was speaking but I’m curious to know more
Second I found listening to the following excerpt from Cori’s origin story particularly impactful so I rewound and listened again and wrote it down verbatim here
Cori Cohn (In response to LSD): “It’s almost not even that they’re told that there’s something wrong with their body, in my opinion, it’s more that they are told that there is a ritual, a body ritual, that they can undertake that if they go through it, will bestow upon them the properties of the thing they’re trying to transcend to achieve…So it’s not “there’s something wrong”, it’s “here’s a sacrifice, to become better, or to become whole”…”But
it doesn’t lead to any special improvement, you end up in a special kind of hell”. Boom. I have no other words to describe the impact of that statement other than wow, that’s a profound statement you just made and I’m going remember that, that kind of raw honesty that challenges us to stop and think, really think about what that really means—to live in that reality, like I remember hearing Sinead in the first Detransition Awareness Day webinar and was struck by her raw unapologetic righteous rage which was directed at gender clinicians (something like what Cori expressed in this episode towards Jack Turban), and she expressed to her audience with her face right up close to the camera, in that characteristic pull no punches style of hers, something to the effect of, “You have no bloody right”…you should be ashamed of yourselves”
That’s not a direct quote necessarily but I was shaken to my core, and that is the kind of personal testimony that is hard to hear but I think can change hearts if more people could hear those voices of lived experience, or maybe they won’t care or they’ll find a way to rationalize it away, but it certainly has moved me and I thank Cori and others who have helped me in my own understanding and awareness of the harm that cannot be undone for so many and which motivates me to continue being a part of this community even when I question the way it can feel like an unhealthy obsession at times
This really feels like a support group experience to me that you are all benefitting from on a genuine open level with each other, and I appreciate being allowed access to listen in 🙏
I don't remember exactly which words I used but I was talking about how German medical profession under influence of Nazi ideology came to see killing people as an act of healing to the 'national body' of the Volk
Chilling to contemplate the use of the word “heal” in this context, and how evidently subversive this was yet this is mostly understood in hindsight and out of context
You do seem to have the ideal background and mindset to study the prevailing paradigm of medical treatment of gender identity by directly examining and meticulously documenting the real life impact on the target patient population re: how well or poorly the recipients of this treatment are in fact faring, but the challenge is to report on it contemporaneously (you are yourself a member of society who lives in the same moment in history as your subjects are living in, attempting to report on what will become future history) when the majority are unable or afraid to themselves take that step outside the zeitgeist, without receiving accusations of hyperbole and “moral panic”
I should add that Lisa’s observation that you somehow escaped being cancelled within your program was very astute and I’m still not sure how you did this other than appearing to be a relatively sympathetic and scientific (ie objective) rather than scornful observer—as you say, you try to let the observations speak for themselves, there is no need to embellish what ought to be obvious and damning evidence that people aren’t “healed” and aren’t getting better from this unfolding sociomedical engineering “project” of our time
I honestly think I got away with it because none of my classmates understood the seriousness of the challenge to other beliefs they held (transwomen are women, etc.). They didn't put it all together. So I think they thought it was OK to explore social influence over trans identity and that some young people might be mistaken, but didn't think it through any further than that. If I had had a real trans activist in my cohort, I would have been cancelled.
I also just looked the part. Solid progressive credentials (even though I didn't do any of the woke signalling my classmates tended to go in for), likeable, assumption that we all must surely believe the same things.
Ben, your pot roast recipe is welcome and appreciated! I made one for the first time ever last weekend with a blade roast from my aunt, and now I want to make up for lost time. It’s such a great comfort dish for winter. Also, I harvested 40 lbs. of potatoes from my community garden this summer, so I need to come up with creative ways to use them.
1. “Informed Dissent” is a *great* name. I do also get the appeal of “Gender Home Companion”! (Would it be too much to combine them? “Informed Dissent: A Gender Home Companion”?)
2. Thanks to you all for sharing these conversations. I appreciate each of you tremendously. Am also glad for the reminders—I need them—about avoiding monomaniacal focus & getting exercise regularly.
3. Hearing about Ben’s pot roast prompted memories of my mom’s! Nowadays, since she & I both avoid animal-sourced fare, I’m feeling inspired to try the “Seitan Roast” recipe I found at thehiddenveggies. But if any gender heretics reading this can point to another plant-based recipe you recommend from experience, I’d be grateful—please do.
Informed Dissent: A Gender Home Companion...for the Monomaniacal!
TURF is an answer in the NYT’s spelling bee today.
I LOVE THIS PODCAST 🤠
Thank you for this, and for all you do. I cast my vote for your current title, but will go with whatever you choose. I want to give a shout-out to Jamie for her response to Ben Appel, and to Ben, for his sensitivity to the issue, on whether it's appropriate for him to weigh in on things with which he's concerned that he's not sure affect him directly. I often feel this myself, and I thought Jamie's answer was pitch perfect. I've spent a lot of my life working in various healthcare-related positions. Over and over, it's abundantly apparent that the incentives are perverse, and we all have a stake in pushing back against this. Here's an article on Portugal v. the US that makes the point: https://web.archive.org/web/20241211180040/https://www.statnews.com/2024/12/10/us-health-care-system-reform-how-portugal-spend-less-increased-life-expectancy/
I would add that in addition to what Jaime described as every citizen having a right to have a say in how their money from taxes and insurance premiums is spent, I find the voices of people who don’t have a child on the brink of harm from this societal madness very valuable. They cannot be dismissed as “just” caring about their own child. Whether or not you have your own childhood history that would have made you susceptible to this harmful ideology, caring about others whom you see being hurt by it is noble and helpful to those who could be dismissed as being rabid, overly protective parents.
Agree with this 💯💯💯
Some of my fellow progressives who have signed up to BlueSky are disappointed with what they consider the lack of robust debate on that platform.
Good episode. I appreciated Jamie's breakdown about the hierarchy of needs and medical ethics. We each have a right to express our dissent because these policies impact all of us in multiple ways. There are probably other ways too, like being forced to go along with pronoun rituals just to keep a job, but feeling out of integrity about it. It would be helpful as a written piece for folks who are destabilized by the question: how does this really impact YOU? Especially for men and/or those who don't have kids. I also appreciated hearing the origin stories. I like Informed Dissent, because that is what people need and what you all have to offer, being particularly well-informed--but it does not mention gender and there are other Substacks called that. (I was trying to find this and had a hard time.) Maybe a subheading would help. Getting a grip on gender or down the gender rabbit hole or gender for dummies. Or a gender home companion as a subheading if you all really love that.
I would like to see the pot roast recipe.
You guys are amazing. Thank you so much for speaking out.
I started laughing when Ben talked about the pot roast recipe because I was pretty sure I had the exact same recipe! It has been a family favorite for a few years and so easy to make. I checked out the comments and sure enough it was the exact same recipe. It is a good thing to share!
I take some macabre pleasure is my prescience on this issue. I have been monomaniacal since about 2012. I was hearing about trans kids while also learning about child development. I couldn’t square away the two. I remember this article celebrating tomboys. Now the child in the photo is transitioned to a boy. I am dying to know what made the parents go down this path. I know them but I doubt they would talk to me about this. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/fashion/where-have-all-the-tomboys-gone.html
I don't think it's a great loss that the likes of The Guardian are leaving X/Twitter. That paper has been misinforming people since it was set up by traders in slave-picked cotton. When the British government outlawed slavery, they switched to trading in American slave-picked cotton instead. It has never been about reporting the facts.
This is ace - such a great group. I loved Jamie's eloquent reminder that everyone in society has a legitimate voice about how its resources are allocated, including medical resources. And I really enjoy Cori's dry wit. All of you show great courage and intelligence. I look forward to hearing Ben and Jamie's "rabbit-hole" stories.
I'm a sixty-something British man, and I got interested in this weird cultural phenomenon via a wider interest in debunking myths and conspiracy theories, after having a crisis of faith in my Eastern mysticism and turning atheist. So I was just curious about 'gender' and thought I'd talk about it rationally at a forum I used to frequent called Talk Rational. Almost nobody there talks rationally now, and I eventually gave up. Sometimes I suspect arguing with cultists just entrenches them deeper, especially online, or if trust isn't established.
I was fairly obsessed for a while, because it was so hard to comprehend, and I can't leave things alone that puzzle me so deeply until I've dug enough to understand them. I had little idea of the wider Woke culture behind it, or how captured the establishment was, or how extreme things were.
I was horrified to see our own prize possession, the British National Health Service, rewriting its patient information to include 'pregnant parents' and 'chestfeeding' and requiring its staff to enquire what people's pronouns are, and wear their rainbow badge and lanyard at all times (to match the enormous rainbows on the building).
The Trans Terrorists had executed a stealthy coup d'état while everyone was asleep at the wheel. I woke up to find I'm a "racist," and "Nazi," words all having been surreptitiously redefined.